Are you on the left or on the right? - Page 7

Odd · April 27, 2003, 23:04

As far as I know (which it isn´t much) Menem had a good deal of responsability towards the situation Argentina is today. Although he adopted some measures towards free market, he didn´t control goverment spending, which lead to the present situation.

Here in Brazil we had some right wing politicians who joined the worst of both sides. Paulo Maluf (mayor of São Paulo) is the best exemple of a person which every single attitute as a political man lead to disaster. Some decades ago he screwed up the healthcare system (shut down 3 hospitals - remember that brazilian public hospitals are perpetually overcrowded) to direct all the city hall resourses in the construction of an absurd highway which name in english would be "big worm", for it´s odd sinuous shape, because it went over an avenue in a densely populated district. Don´t have to say what happened to the hundreds of buildings that had a very intense traffic flow 5 meters from it´s windows. That alone it would be bad, but it gets worse, because he left the city´s economy drowned in debts, because of rampant corruption (a regular avenue built by him only loses in $ per kilometer built to the english channel tunnel). We have really bad exemples from right wing politicians here.

So while I think it's ok the right wing that decreases the state, improve national finances and promotes economic growth, I am horrified by politicians that insert subjetive moral values into the state, like religion (and I´m a very religious man) or screw up finances by increasing deficits while decreasing social benefits. Hard liners that defends violence as a mean to solve problems are also disliked by me. Paulo Maluf whom I wrote before defends a police as gentle as Gestapo to deal with the rampant violence seen in Brazil that results from having close together rich neighborhoods with settlements holding millions of miserable people with no education, therefore no job in today´s world, which the only occupation left is to rape one another and use drugs (the reality is a bit worse than that due to my bad english - my mother works in such places as a doctor and she tells me terrifying stories).

Giancarlo · April 27, 2003, 23:24

Quote:

As far as I know (which it isn´t much) Menem had a good deal of responsability towards the situation Argentina is today.

I think De La Rua holds most of the responsibility for acting so sluggishly in his term... he did practically nothing to tweak the currency board.

In Spain we either get a screw up from the People's Socialist Hellhole Party (PSOE) or a good guy like Aznar from the Popular Party (PP). Two choices.

Aro · April 27, 2003, 23:31

Great post, Odd. Well said.

Giancarlo · April 27, 2003, 23:34

Well I am not familiar with Brazilian politics in the first place. I do not identify with the system there and am not from there. Personally I think Lula is a fool. But that is my own opinion. I know most about Spanish and US politics.

Aro · April 28, 2003, 00:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
...............
Personally I think Lula is a fool. But that is my own opinion.
...............

No matter if I like Lula or not (I like

)... I can't imagine a fool handling tough negotiations as President of the biggest sindicate of South America, under a dictatorship, or leading a party like the Worker's Party here, with a lot of tendencies and groups (some of them very, very radical ones... I'm sure Odd can confirm that), or win a presidential election in a country with a very young democracy (we're not in Europe, Fez... even if Spain has a young democracy, the things are very different ), and very conservative people...

Lula can be whatever you want, but... fool?

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 00:05

Well he might be a good political negoitater, but still a fool. I don't like his economic or social policies.

Aro · April 28, 2003, 00:17

If you say so...

fool [count] someone who does not behave in an intelligent or sensible way
© Macmillan Publishers Ltd. 2002

I don't like Aznar as well... But he's not a fool. He can't be...

Btw, Menen isn't a fool. He is... Well, this is a family thread...

Al'Kimiya · April 28, 2003, 01:33

Authoritarian Right
... and to be liberal is not to be left, just misguided.

Ben Kenobi · April 28, 2003, 01:41

cinch:

There is some good stuff in the Romanow report, particularly concerning the delivery of services, ways to make the system more efficient.

Since when is the Alliance opposed to the Romanow report?

cinch · April 28, 2003, 01:44

Obi:

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/spec3/RTGAM/20021129/wroma1129ro/SpecialEvents3/romanowBN/breakingnews

The Alliance isn't rabidly opposed to it in principle, but it doesn't want to raise taxes, which (the Alliance says) would be necessary to implement the changes.

EDIT: Okay, that link doesn't work for some reason, so here's an excerpt from the article:

Show us money for Romanow, Alliance demands

By ALLISON DUNFIELD
Globe and Mail Update

The Opposition Canadian Alliance pressed the Liberals on Friday to show Canadians where the money will come from to implement Roy Romanow's $15-million plan to improve health care.

Alliance MP Chuck Strahl warned that it was not likely the government could do so without tax increases.

The Alliance put the screws to the Liberals during Question Period on Friday by asking the federal government how it will fund the recommendations, when Finance Minister John Manley has earmarked only $14.4-billion for new initiatives of any kind between now and 2006. That is the same period for which Mr. Romanow recommended funding for health care be increased by $15-billion.

"The projected surplus is $14-billion. How can they possibly pay for this wish list without increasing taxes?" Alliance MP Chuck Strahl asked in the Commons.

"My colleague [Mr. Manley] has been fairly clear. Canadians do not want their taxes increased," Health Minister Anne McLellan replied.
***********************************

The more I read up on it, though, the more I see that basically every opposition party has problems with Romanow:

-the Alliance & PCs think it's too hard on private clinics
-the NDP thinks it's too open to private clinics

Feh. Everyone hates everything. I give up.

Natural Law it is!

cinch · April 28, 2003, 01:54

Obi:

Here's a better one:

From CBC.ca:

****************
Harper says Romanow report 'entirely wrong'
Last Updated Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:54:28

OTTAWA - The leader of the Opposition says Roy Romanow's prescription for the health care system is "entirely wrong." Canadian Alliance Leader Stephen Harper called the recommendations "pie in the sky."

Health Minister Anne McLellan said Canadians aren't interested fighting anymore, that they want the federal and provincial governments to figure out how to make the health system better.

"Canadians have sent … a very clear message that they want this system fixed."

McLellan said it is too soon to say how much money Ottawa will put into the system and on what timetable.

New Democrat health critic Judy Wasylycia-Leis said the report's release marks "a great day for Canadians."
With the funding recommendations contained in the report, governments can stop the "squabble over money," said Liberal MP Carolyn Bennett.

NDP Leader Alexa McDonough said the report marks a turning point in the renewal of health care in Canada. "It puts behind us the ideological battles and puts before us a solid prescription and a treatment plan that can be implemented with the urgency that's needed," she said.

The inclusion of issues affecting aboriginal people such as housing and education is a good sign, said Matthew Coon Come, national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. "The report itself ties in economic conditions to health," he said.

But with the exception of a few details about putting more money into the system, Harper rejected the report.

"This is entirely the wrong direction," Harper said.

"The direction of this report, the making the system less flexible, moving to banning alternative delivery, to trying to dictate to the provinces the expansion of the system in a whole bunch of targeted boutique ways, all of these ways are completely unhelpful and unrealistic."

Prime Minister Jean Chrétien wasn't available for comment on Thursday. The Prime Minister's Office did release a statement.

In it, Chrétien said: "The Romanow Report and other recent studies will provide a strong foundation for a long-term plan of action based on responsible spending for change. We are prepared to work closely with our partners, the provinces and territories."
*****************************************

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/11/28/romanow_reax021128

Zoid · April 28, 2003, 08:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
Well this is with my bestfriend who happens to be a guy...

Well that could raise a few eyebrows I suppose.

Well, enough of this threadjack...

Arrian · April 28, 2003, 11:25

If I'm a centrist American, what the hell do I vote? There are still moderates in this country, damnit!

I guess it's banana for me, then.

-Arrian

JCG · April 28, 2003, 12:59

I'm usually a moderate, but I'm slightly right/left on certain issues....tough.

Lawrence of Arabia · April 28, 2003, 13:49

The economist supports Lula so far.

SpencerH · April 28, 2003, 13:57

An interesting poll.

Americans are split 50-50 while the non-americans are 75% lefty.

I'm a banana

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 17:34

Aro, you might not like Aznar but the fact is he performed economic affairs really well. I have a feeling Lula will not. The Economist magazine is just speculating. Sure he might say he will adopt pro-capitalist reforms as the previous Cardoso adminstration did, but then again lets wait and see. He could become another Chavez... who will bring a country down the tubes.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamrat X

Well that could raise a few eyebrows I suppose.

Well, enough of this threadjack...

Yes it does...

Heh... I don't care... my love life...

Spencer, I wouldn't call this a proper forum to base what the reality is on... there are more leftys here...

Ben Kenobi · April 28, 2003, 18:58

cinch:

Thank you.

That's a change in CA policy. I did know they opposed the expenses of the Romanow plan, but not necessarily the contents.

I'd like to see Harper's explanation for the increased rigidity imposed by the plan? That is not something I see myself.

Aro · April 28, 2003, 19:15

Fez, as I said before, I don't like Aznar, but he's not a fool. He has the "responsability of power", as well Lula. Brasil isn't Venezuela, and we don't have those complicated relations between Army, politics and Oil companies. Chavez was a "golpista" (I can't find the correspondent word in English) and I don't like him, no matter how "social" his speech is. I believe in Democracy.
Lula has a big responsability here... and he's trying to balance the public accounts. He knows how sensitive the economy could be. Don't expect from him anything crazy or stupid... But don't expect a total omission of social issues. We are top-ranked in "social distance"... I mean, the gap between the rich and the poor people here is outrageous. It's not good for anybody, even the rich people. The market just can't solve this by itself.

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 19:19

Well lets just hope Lula can prove me wrong and do things correctly. I am just speculating. Not supporting a military coup or something like that.

Golpista.. means coup leader.

Lula probably has a bit more credit riding behind his adminstration. But I am very cautious to give him any support or any hinting that he might be okay.

Aro · April 28, 2003, 19:22

You're a tough guy, Fez...

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 19:33

Well gotta be... in this world... you know the reason..

Oerdin · April 28, 2003, 19:33

No centrist/moderate choice?

Oerdin · April 28, 2003, 19:41

BTW I actually like the way Lula is talking. He seems to understand that if he acts to leftist that the international investors as well as Brazil's own investors will abandon the country leading the economy into a nose dive. He seems to want to be an economic concervative and a social progressive. As long as he keeps an eye on the bottom line and doesn't chase off the companies which will pay for his social programs then he might just lead Brazil out of the funk it's been for most of the last 25 years.

Sava · April 28, 2003, 19:46

There are more than two political ideologies people... NEITHER!

Aro · April 28, 2003, 19:46

God bless you, Oerdin.

I hope the same.

Traianvs · April 28, 2003, 20:17

hardcore left

Lawrence of Arabia · April 28, 2003, 20:17

Time to wup out those time worn websites!

www.politopia.com
www.politicalcompass.org

Ben Kenobi · April 28, 2003, 20:32

Quote:

Centerville-You would feel most at home in Centerville, which means that you are more or less pleased the status quo-you think the US government has just about the right amount of control over your economic and personal decisions. Your neighbors include democratic and republican party leaders and others who call themselves "moderates" and "centrists."

Interestingly Bush is a moderate according to this poll.

At least I'm on the conservative side of the centre.

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 20:34

Ditto that. Centerville?

I think that poll is skewed and inaccurate. I am no centerist...